A Saint Between Worlds: A Global History of the Relics of Saint Louis of Toulouse (Minieri & Cantrell)

Listen here or on any podcasting platform.

In the early hours of 23 November 1423, a Catalan fleet entered the port of Marseille under the cover of darkness. Over the next two days, soldiers led by King Alfonso V of Aragon plundered and burned the city as its residents fled into the countryside. Before the ships left, Alfonso’s men entered a safehouse and stole the relics of Saint Louis of Toulouse (d. 1297).

They carried off Louis’s relics to Valencia Cathedral, where Alfonso turned the Angevin saint into a symbol of Aragonese control of the Kingdom of Naples. Between 1423 and the eighteenth century, Louis of Toulouse’s relics were translated (translatio) around the Spanish World to churches in Iberia, southern France, the Philippines, and California. As a symbol of Spanish imperial conquest inside and outside of the Iberian peninsula, a French-Italian saint was transformed into a symbol of empire across geographies.

Jessica L. Minieri is a PhD Candidate in the Department of History at Binghamton University where she studies late medieval and Renaissance Mediterranean history. During the 2025-2026 academic year, Jessica is a Predoctoral Research Resident at the Central for the Art and Architectural History of Port Cities (“La Capraia”) at the Museo e Real Bosco di Capodimonte in Naples, Italy. Her dissertation project, Stolen Bodies and Hollow Crowns: Imprisonment, Abduction, and the Expansion of the Crown of Aragon, 1280-1490, explores the histories of captivity, imprisonment, and forced marriage for royals in Aragonese controlled Mallorca and southern Italy. This project explores the ways in which Aragonese territorial expansion was connected to the control of the bodies, marriages, and sexuality of royal and aristocratic figures in the Western Mediterranean. Jessica is also the editor-in-chief of H-Sicily, an H-Net network focused on southern Italian history and culture between antiquity and the eighteenth century.

Loren Easterday Lee Cantrell is a series producer for The Multicultural Middle Ages Podcast and holds a PhD in French from the University of Virginia.

Further Reading:

• Español Bertran, Francesca. “La Beata Stirps en la Corona de Aragón: Santa Isabel de Hungría y San Luis de Tolosa, culto e iconografía.” Hagiografia peninsular en els segles medievals (Lleida: Edicions de la Universitat de Lleida, 2008), 135–168.

• Grieco, Holly J. “‘In Some Way Even More than Before’: Approaches to Understanding St. Louis of Anjou, Franciscan Bishop of Toulouse.” In Center and Periphery: Studies on Power in the Medieval World in Honor of William Chester Jordan edited by Katherine L. Jansen, G. Geltner, and Anne E. Lester (Leiden: Brill, 2013), 135–156.

• Norman, Diana. “Politics and Piety: Locating Simone Martini's Saint Louis of Toulouse Altarpiece.” Art History 33, no. 4 (2010): 596–619.

• Norman, Diana. “The Sicilian Connection: Imperial Themes in Simone Martini’s St. Louis of Toulouse Altarpiece.” Gesta 53, no. 1 (2014): 25–45.

• Salet, Francis. “Le bras-reliquaire de saint Louis de Toulouse.” Bulletin Monumental 139, no. 2 (1981): 105–106.

Episode transcript (for a time-dynamic transcript, access the episode through a free podcast platform such as Apple Podcasts or Spotify):

Jessica: So in the early hours of November 23rd, 1423, a Catalan fleet entered the port of Marseille under the cover of darkness. Over the next two days, soldiers led by King Alfonso V of Aragon plundered and burned the city as its residents fled into the countryside. Before the ships left, Alfonso's men entered a safe house and stole the relics of the Angevin saint, Saint Louis of Toulouse.

These men carried off Louis's relics to Valencia Cathedral, where King Alfonso turned the Angevin saint into a symbol of Aragonese control of the Kingdom of Naples. Between 1423 and the 18th century, Louis of Toulouse's relics were translated around the Spanish world to churches in the Philippines, Malaga, which is a city in Spain, Medina del Campo, which is a city in Spain where an arm reliquary was held until it s- was sold to the Louvre in the 1890s, and the city of San Luis Obispo in California.

As a symbol of Spanish imperial conquest inside and outside of the peninsula, a once Italian saint had transformed into a symbol of the Spanish Empire across geographies. So this episode will really focus on the later and central Middle Ages. Geographically and chronologically, we are in the Mediterranean world, focusing on Southern Italy, which Southern Italy in the Middle Ages changes borders really by the century.

So when I refer to the Kingdom of Sicily, I am generally referring to the island of Sicily, but then also territories on the mainland, so that would be territories south of Rome really. That would include modern Campania, Basilicata, Puglia, Molise, Abruzzo, and Calabria. So Southern Italy is basically equivalent with the Kingdom of Sicily.

There are also two important dynasties that we will discuss at length in this episode. I will refer to the House of Barcelona. So they are the dynasty that rules in what is now around the modern city of Barcelona, referred to as the Crown of Aragon, which is a territory that begins in the 12th century, and it composes of what is now Catalonia.

But also, if you look at a modern map of Spain, it includes regions like Aragon, Valencia, the Balearic Islands, so Mallorca, and Catalonia. So it's basically the eastern Iberian Peninsula. So it is ruled by the House of Barcelona between 1137 and 1410. They are then succeeded in the same territory by the House of Trastámara, which is a dynasty that many people know because of Ferdinand and Isabella, who is a monarchical pair that are associated usually with Christopher Columbus and then Atlantic colonization.

They are both part of the Trastámara dynasty, which rules pretty much all of the Iberian Peninsula except for Portugal until the rise of the House of Habsburg in the later 15th century. The Angevins, or the House of Anjou, it's the same term, are a French dynasty that rule southern Italy, and they are descended from the Capetian dynasty, which rule in France.

So they are a French dynasty, but they rule southern Italy from 1266 until 1442. So they are a major player in southern Italian history, particularly in the cities of Naples and Palermo. And Louis of Toulouse, who is the subject of this episode, is a member of that royal dynasty. Geographically, when I talk about the Crown of Aragon, I am referring to the eastern Iberian territories that I mentioned, and then also I'm referring to their holdings in the Mediterranean, which at the end of the Middle Ages includes southern Italy, parts of Greece, mainly the city of Athens, Sardinia, and the Balearic Islands

Loren: Welcome to the Multicultural Middle Ages podcast. My name is Lauren Cantrell, and I'm one of the producers here, uh, speaking with Jessica Manieri, a PhD candidate at Binghamton University, about her research on saints' relics, a favorite topic of mine. And in particular today, we're talking about the relics of Louis of Toulouse and how they've kind of traveled around the world for various purposes.

So who is this Louis of Toulouse, and why is it that his relics are so hotly contested?

Jessica: Thank you so much for having me. So Louis of Toulouse is an important saint in the Mediterranean world, particularly in southern Italy, the Iberian Peninsula, and parts of what is now modern France. My dissertation project looks at the use of imprisonment and abduction, particularly of royals in Majorca, Naples, and Sicily between the 14th century and the end of the 15th century.

So during this period of the Middle Ages, the later 14th and early 15th century, the Crown of Aragon was focused on expanding its rule from eastern Iberia into the Mediterranean world, and at its height, they controlled kingdoms in Majorca, southern France, southern Italy, and Greece. So my project looks at how Aragonese kings like Peter IV and Alfonso V used abduction and imprisonment of royal women, but also royal men, to gain control of these kingdoms.

So particularly I'm looking at Sicily, Naples, and Majorca, and how the abduction of royals such as Maria of Sicily, James IV of Majorca, Joanna II of Naples, and, as we'll talk about today, Louis of Toulouse, is involved with this process. So Louis of Toulouse is an odd case because he is a relic and a dead body, but he is involved in this story in the context of Joanna II of Naples, who is ruling the Kingdom of Naples, which includes everything south of the modern city of Naples, but also includes Calabria, Puglia, and much of the regions in modern southern Italy.

In this moment, Joanna II is ruling Naples without an heir. She does not have a child. She doesn't have anyone really in her direct family that could take over the throne, at least in her eyes, and this is in the 1420s. So she decides to adopt Alfonso V of Aragon as her heir, and he is ruling the Aragonese territories between 1416 and until his death in 1458.

Joanna adopts him as her heir in 1420, and he travels to Naples to officially have a ceremony where she officially adopts him, but then also he wants to make his presence in the city known. So we won't go too far into that story 'cause he is in Naples for two, three years before he finally leaves. But during this time, he does not necessarily want to wait for Joanna's eventual death for him to rule Naples.

He really wants to rule it right away, and he doesn't want it to end up being where an heir of his would eventually rule the kingdom. He wants to rule it himself. So after trying to besiege the city and force Joanna out, either by abducting her, imprisoning her, or potentially murdering her, he tries to capture her in 1423 and is unsuccessful because she escapes to the nearby city of Aversa and remains there until he eventually has to leave Naples because he is also in this moment a member of the Castilian royal family, the House of Trastámara, and they are having internal civil wars that draw him away from Naples.

So in a huff, he leaves the city of Naples. He is also no longer Joanna's heir 'cause she is not happy that he tried to kidnap her. So she revokes that adoption, and she picks one of her cousins, Louis III, Duke of Anjou, instead. And he's pretty angry about this, so he sails to Marseille, which is also controlled by her dynasty.

She is not the Duchess of Provence. It's just one of her family that is ruling it, which would be Louis III. And he is so angry about this whole situation that he burns the city of Marseille to the ground, literally storms in there, burns the city. People are fleeing into the countryside. It is a mess, and in the process of that, steals the relic of Saint Louis of Toulouse, who is Joanna II's dynastic saint

Loren: Well, so who is Louis of Toulouse the man?

Could you tell us a bit more about his life? Um, where did he come from? What's his own story? And why is it the Angevins are so interested in connecting themselves to saints like Louis?

Jessica: So the Angevin dynasty, kind of like other dynasties in this moment in the Middle Ages, so between about the 13th century and the end of the 15th, dynasties like the Capetians in France, to a degree the House of Barcelona and Aragon, and then also the Angevins in Naples, are interested in connecting themselves to saints in a way to connect themselves both to the territory that these saints are associated with, but then also to kind of grant some legitimacy to their royal line.

Like, it's a way to show, "Oh, we are a legitimate dynasty because we are descended from saints. Look at all these saints in our royal lineage." For Louis, he's part of that because he is a direct member of the Angevin royal house. So to explain who he is, Louis of Toulouse is born in the late 13th century.

He is the son of Charles II of Naples. Charles II rules at the end of the War of the Sicilian Vespers, which occurs in 1282 to 1302, and this is a dynastic war that occurs actually between the Aragonese and the Angevins over whose right it is to control southern Italy, which we can talk more about that in depth.

But it's a complicated war, and Louis of Toulouse is kind of born in the middle of it. So Louis is an important member of the House of Anjou, or the Angevin dynasty, the same thing, in Naples, and Louis is a royal prince in this Kingdom of Naples, so in southern Italy. He is one of four or five brothers who are the heirs of Naples.

And Louis, he was supposed to inherit the Kingdom of Naples upon his father's death. He ultimately decides not to follow that path because during the War of the Sicilian Vespers, he and two of his brothers are held captive by the Aragonese. And during that moment, they're held with the Franciscans in Catalonia.

Without going too far into the details of that, they are held captive for about five years, and they are watched over by the Franciscan order So because of this, Louis is exposed to Franciscan teachings about, particularly about poverty. He's in conversation with people like Peter Olivi, who is a Franciscan or really a spiritual Franciscan.

And once he is released in the 1290s, he decides he no longer wants to rule over Naples, and instead decides to become a member of the Franciscan order. He wants to step down in order so that his brother Robert instead can become king. So Louis doesn't really live too long. His life is short. He dies at age 23 due both to disease and malnutrition, and he's known as Louis of Toulouse because he very briefly at the end of his life is the bishop of the city of Toulouse.

And a part of his serving as bishop of Toulouse is both to make him an important political figure in that space, but then also to allow him to keep doing the good works that he is doing. Louis takes his imitation of Christ and his asceticism, which is really the idea that Christians in the Middle Ages should try in some ways to imitate Christ's suffering, whether that's physically or whether that's by other means.

And Louis takes this as putting really others' needs before his own, to the point where he kind of starves to death. He dies in 1297. He's made bishop about a year or two before, and becomes by 1317 a canonized saint by Pope John XXII, and becomes really one of the most important saints in the Franciscan tradition.

And for the Angevins, over time after his death, he is important because he is canonized in 1317, about 20 years after his death. And for them, they want to say, "Oh, look, we have a saint in our direct dynasty in Naples." In a way, he being connected to sanctity and being connected to the Franciscan order really legitimizes their claim to Southern Italy, so that's why they are so focused on having Louis of Toulouse in their line

Loren: So we began this conversation thinking about his relics as well.

Uh, could you give us a sense of where his relics originate from, and give us a taste of, this incredible theft that you've alluded to?

Jessica: Yeah. So Louis dies in Provence, and he, in his will, decides that he wants his bones to be interned in the Franciscan church in the city of Marseille. His bones remain there between his death and when they're stolen by Alfonso of Aragon in 1423.

So this is a little over 120 years. His bones, along with his skull and many of the other fragments, are moved into the church there, and for a while, that's fine. That's what Louis wanted. But the Angevins in Naples at this point, by the time of after his death, his brother Robert succeeds, and he becomes Robert the Wise of Naples.

He wants his brother's body, after his 1317 canonization, he wants either all of it or a piece of it to be moved to Naples. Unfortunately for us, in 1943, the Neapolitan archive that held the documents for the Angevin dynasty was destroyed by the Nazis as they were fleeing- Ah ... the city. Yep. So we don't, we don't know for sure where Louis was gonna be interned.

But the idea was that Louis was gonna be brought to the Church of Santa Chiara, which is in Naples, and you can still visit. It did survive the bombing, but it was heavily damaged. It was designed that Louis was gonna be a ch- in a chapel there, but it was only gonna be his skull brought from Marseille to Naples.

And then eventually, they have- there's documents talking about Robert's and his queen, Sancia's, plans to move Louis' brain from Marseille to Naples. Which if you think about it- What would be left of his brain about 20 or 30 years after his death, it is unclear.

Loren: Gosh. I suppose, I suppose depending on how it was embalmed or anything like that.

But gosh, you telling us the story about how, you know, we would have clearer documentation if not for destruction resulting from, you know, violence in World War II, and I'm always just shocked at the, the amount of information that we lose due to just human activity, you know? I mean, and it's really incredible that we're able to, um, know almost anything sometimes about the past when I think about it, when, when you have fires and floods and wars and, and all sorts of things.

So it's, it's unfortunate we don't have clear documentation on this, but it's still incredible what we are able to know. Getting back to Alfonso V's interest in these, these, these relics. So, so we have an interest in having them move from Marseille to Naples. Could you tell us more about what was Alfonso V's interest in, uh, in Naples and, and why were these Aragonese interested in Southern Italy to begin with?

What was, what was th- their claim to Naples, and why is it they're trying to assert their claim in Naples so aggressively?

Jessica: Yeah, so this is... So the Aragonese tie to Southern Italy is really an interesting one, and it dates back really to the reign of Frederick II. So Frederick II is King of Southern Italy, and at this moment the Kingdom of Sicily, as it's understood, includes all of Southern Italy, both the mainland and the island of Sicily.

It's just all called Sicily. And Frederick is famously excommunicated by the pope. He is not a super popular king at the time. And towards the end of his life, there is a crusade against the Hohenstaufen dynasty, of which he was a member, and him and all his heirs, for the most part, mainly his male heirs, were either executed or disposed.

But his daughter Constance, before this crusade finishes, married into the House of Aragon, and she's married to Peter III. So it's known now as the War of the Sicilian Vespers, and this is a war that is... The name is given in the 19th century, but the Sicilian Vespers begins with a revolt against Angevin rule, ' cause the Angevin dynasty took over Southern Italy after Frederick's death.

Charles I of Anjou, who is a brother of Louis IX of France, invades Southern Italy, takes advantage of this ongoing crusade, and rules it. His rule doesn't last very long, 'cause he takes over in the 1260s, and then by the 1280s the Sicilian and Southern Italian population does not really like the idea of a French royal brother coming and trying to rule them.

So this is when this outbreak of war begins The Aragonese get involved. But because Peter is King Peter of Aragon is married to a Hohenstaufen princess, he decides, "Wait a minute, should I not be the king of Southern Italy considering my wife has a legitimate claim to the Italian south?" So this is how this war begins.

Peter invades Sicily with the intention of getting rid of the Angevins. So this is really the beginning of what will be a centuries-long conflict between Iberian rulers, eventually will become the Castilians in Spain and the Angevins in France over the rule of Southern Italy So because of this, there's a lot of overlap between the Angevin dynasty and the House of Barcelona.

So Louis of Toulouse kind of gets caught up in this originally as a relic, because there is an arm reliquary, which you can now see in the Louvre in Paris. That's where it is now. Sancia of Majorca, who is Robert the Wise's queen, has a golden arm reliquary made to hold what she hopes will be his arm bone, so from, like, the wrist to the forearm.

And how the Aragonese get involved with this is we're really unsure because of this 1943 destruction of documents, but some art historians think that it must have been that this arm reliquary was gifted to an Aragonese royal princess. But there's no... We don't know for sure 'cause there's no clear documentation.

But over time, this reliquary ends up in Aragonese hands, and between about really the late 14th century and its, really the 1890s when it's sold to the Louvre, it lives in a monastery in Castile under the protection of the House of Trastámara, which feels random 'cause they really have nothing to do with the Neapolitan dynasty.

What do they really have to do with Louis of Toulouse? But they are the protectors of his arm reliquary. Now when you go to the Louvre, I should mention that the arm, there's no arm bone in the glass. It is just clear. But at the time, it would have shown it, so it would have been another reminder of the saintly lineage of the royal dynasty.

Loren: Well, so I, I'd love to hear more about the, the reliquary itself. Could you tell us a bit more about its appearance particularly, you know, maybe the materials that we're dealing with here? Could you please give us a description of what it looks like?

Jessica: Yeah. So this arm reliquary was owned by both Alfonso of Aragon's mother and grandmother, so it's something that he would have definitely have seen in his childhood before he eventually steals the re- rest of Louis's body.

And so how it looks is it has, at the top of it, it has a hand made out of gold. Then on the wrist, it says in Latin that this is the arm of Saint Louis of Toulouse. Between the wrist and really the, what you would consider to be the elbow, is glass. So if you had seen this reliquary either when it lived in a monastery in Castile or when it was in Naples, you would have seen Louis's arm in it.

And then at the bottom, what's really interesting, particularly in the context of this relic theft a little later, there is the emblem of the Angevins of Naples. And then after it becomes, uh, possession of both the House of Barcelona, then later the House of Trastámara, there is the emblem of the Aragonese royal house there.

So it, it's very clear when you- if you don't even know the story of this relic or who Louis of Toulouse is, you can see by looking at it that this belonged to an Iberian royal house and a Neapolitan one. They basically make their mark on Louis's reliquary in that way. So that way, when Alfonso steals the relic later on, it's kind of almost like he's bringing back the rest of the body back to his territory where he already has an arm reliquary So once Alfonso kind of takes the relic and he ultimately brings it back to the city of Valencia, which is in Aragonese territory, and it's really an important city at this time.

Once he brings it back to the shores, he is not just allowed to take this reliquary and kind of put it in Valencia Cathedral and just be done with it, because the pope is not happy. Martin V is the pope at this time in the early 1420s, and his immediate reaction, as well as the reaction of Charles VII, who is the King of France, who is also, because he is blood related to the Angevin dynasty in Naples, he also has a blood relation to Louis of Toulouse.

Both are not happy, because they don't like the idea that any king, particularly an Aragonese one who is trying to take over a city kingdom like Naples, is that he, he could just storm into a church, take these relics, burn down the city, and flee and be on his way. So it's kind of like opens up the door for if we let Alfonso of Aragon just do this and do what he wants, then it's gonna let others kind of really plunder and steal and do really what they want, which is something, 'cause a reliquary thefts is something that's a little, and relic thefts is larger really in the early Middle Ages and the, and the High Middle Ages versus the later.

You don't see it as much, although it does happen. So they don't want Alfonso really to open the door for this to keep happening. They don't like the idea that any monarch, not even just, not even really just Alfonso, they don't really like the setting of precedent, that this is something that could happen.

So they are initially very, very angry about this theft, and this, this anger between the papacy and the Aragonese goes on until 1437.

Loren: Well, I'd love to hear more detail about that response. So you've mentioned that the pope and the King of France were both, uh, angered by the, the theft of this relic by Alfonso, and I was just wondering if you could go into more detail there.

What happened immediately after the theft of these relics in the 1420s?

Jessica: Yeah. So Alfonso's theft of Louis's relics is not something that the, the papacy under Martin V and then also the French monarchy under Charles VII is particularly happy about, 'cause they see this really as an offense to them, both really as an offense onto the idea of Christendom as a whole, that a king could just enter a city and steal a relic.

And then also that he would steal a relic that's associated really with Naples itself, but then also tangentially really the French royal line. So really, this fight over this relic

Loren: theft carries onward from 1423 until 1437. '

Jessica: Cause by 1437, in this really, this decade-long period, Alfonso is kind of deciding what he is to do in Naples.

So he originally leaves in 1423 to go deal with problems back home in Castile. And while he does that, Alfonso is kind of focused on, "Well, I need to attack the city of Naples again. I need to make sure that I can succeed Joanna and not some other member of her royal line." So in this period, he is also trying to justify why he has this relic.

After kind of going back and forth with the papacy and making it known that he has no intention of giving Louis of Toulouse's relics back, either to Marseille or to Naples, like, he is deciding that they are his. It is not until 1437 that the pope kind of just gives up. Really, Martin V is just... He has been fighting this battle with him for over a decade and finally just decides, "Okay, we will grant you the papal permission that you need to keep these relics.

They can remain in Valencia. They do not have to return to Marseille or Naples." Because at this moment in time in the late 1430s, Joanna II herself dies in 1435, and with her, the idea that Alfonso would be her adopted heir dies with her because she herself dies. So she is succeeded by her cousin René of Anjou, who becomes King of Naples until 1435 to 1442.

So for Alfonso, he kind of is nervous about this change in monarchy because this kind of makes it more difficult for him to conquer the city and really get his position in there. And then so he also uses Louis of Toulouse kind of as a, a symbol to say, "I have this physical manifestation of the Angevin dynasty by having its most important saint here in Valencia.

I also was adopted by the queen. I deserve to rule in Naples, and I hold," kind of almost, like, for ransom in a way, "your most important saint." So by 1442, Alfonso is successful in this moment and able to invade the city again and force René of Anjou out, and with that, he is effective in becoming King of Naples.

So Louis is kind of, like, in a sense, used as, as, like, a way of to say, after Joanna's death, that he has a physical tie to the Kingdom of Naples. But then at the same time, he also kind of relies on some of the weaknesses within René of Anjou's court because he becomes king very quickly after Joanna II dies, and he uses this as a moment to say, "I basically have to conquer Naples now, or I never will."

So Alfonso is really using these, these papal weaknesses, but then also weaknesses within Southern Italy to effectively take over.

Loren: So it sounds like wrapped up in all of this too is conflict between who is more powerful, who has more authority, these monarchies or, uh, the power of the papacy. Is that something we kind of see generally in this period as, as monarchs vying for power over, uh, the pope, or is this, do you think, maybe particular to this local example?

Jessica: No, that, that is a great point because in this, in the 15th century here, this is in 1423 when Alfonso makes this first theft of this relic. This is only really a few years after the Council of Constance, which effectively ends the Western Schism of the papacy, which is when the papacy was split between the city of Avignon in Southern France and Rome.

So there was a point in time we have two popes, we have the Angevin Pope and then the Roman Pope, and then for a very brief amount of time after the Council of Pisa and then the Council of Perpignan in 1408, that we have a third pope. So once this all gets cleaned up at Constance, a German city, in 1418, the papacy effectively moves back to Rome, and we once again have one pope.

So because we're really coming off the heels of that, the papacy is a lot weaker than it once was. It's really a lot weaker than it was, say, like a century or two centuries before, when popes like Innocent III, for example, were some of the most powerful popes really at the helm of the papacy. The Western Schism does a lot of weakening of it because you have all these figureheads claiming to be pope, and if all these people claim to be pope, then it really dampens what, like the papal power that was once there.

So Alfonso kind of takes advantage of this in a lot of ways by once he steals this relic, he knows that the papacy under Martin V is not necessarily as strong as it could've been if it, this had happened centuries before. So he kind of draws out this fight over Louis' relics kind of just to wait people out.

That's the thing that Alfonso is best at, waiting these people out. 'Cause Joanna herself dies in the 1430s, and then he is able to wait out René of Anjou until he kicks him out of the, the city. So that's what he basically does with the papacy, and then eventually they relent and say, "All right, keep the relic."

Loren: Wow, finding the right moment, not asking for permission, and barely asking for forgiveness, it sounds like.

Jessica: Exactly.

Loren: And, and I think you've mentioned that Valencia was a place of interest here in terms of bringing the relic. So, so why bring these bones to Valencia and, and not, say, Barcelona instead? What, why Valencia in particular?

Jessica: So Valencia is an important city and one that I don't think particularly historians of the earlier Crown of Aragon appreciate. Really, by Alfonso's reign, he is the second monarch in this new dynasty in Aragon, 'cause after the death of King Martin the Humanist in 1410, there is a brief interregnum until Alfonso's father, Ferdinand of Castile, is elected as King of Aragon.

And because of that, by the time Alfonso... And this happens in 1412, and Alfonso comes to the throne in 1416, so he is really his father's successor in this new dynasty. And the House of Barcelona, the preceding dynasty, really had been in power since the 12th century in the city of Barcelona, but also beyond, that they had built a longstanding relationship with the Catalan nobles in the County of, really, of Barcelona and the County of Catalonia.

Alfonso's kind of this outsider who is really more Castilian than he is Aragonese, and he does not get along with the Catalan nobility at all. And because of this, he decides, 'cause really Barcelona had been the capital, so he decides that he doesn't necessarily have to keep his court in Barcelona, and that he can move it to Valencia, which is really the second most important city in the Crown of Aragon, beyond maybe Palma de Mallorca.

So he moves his court to the Royal Palace of Valencia, which was destroyed in the Na- Napoleonic period, so it, unfortunately, is no longer there. But he moves his court there. So when he returns from Marseille in the 1420s with this, really with all, everything he got in Marseille, 'cause in addition to Louis of Toulouse, they steal pretty much a lot of money.

They steal other treasures in the city, in the churches that were left there. So he kind of comes back with all this loot, and with Louis of Toulouse being the most important part of this. He doesn't sail to Barcelona. He sails to Valencia and stores the items at first in the Royal Palace of Valencia, and then over time, they move to Valencia Cathedral

Loren: well, all of this, uh, this movement of these relics and all of this, um, in an attempt to establish power in one place or another really brings us into what I think is one of the most fascinating parts of, of this research you're doing. And you talk about how Louis' bones are then moved much later.

So could you tell us how eventually Louis' bones end up in Malaga and the Philippines after Alfonso V's death?

Jessica: Yeah. So Alfonso dies in 1458, and after he wins Naples, the city, in 1442, he moves his court there. And in doing so, he has his wife, Maria of Castile, rules really as which referred to as a queen lieutenant, which is basically, like, a fancy term for regent in Valencia, and she rules the Iberian territories, and Alfonso stays in southern Italy.

So because of this, his, really, claim to southern Italy after his death is tenuous, and his illegitimate son, Ferrante, succeeds, and he rules in southern Italy, and then he has, um, a successor in Aragon. So the crowns basically split again. They're no longer ruled by the same king. So as this is going on in, in Naples with King Ferrante, as he is trying to, 'cause particularly he's an illegitimate son, he's trying to hold onto his power in Naples.

The Castilian kings and the dynasty, the Trastámara dynasty in Castile, is pushing forward south, trying to encroach on the Kingdom of Granada, which is still Islamically controlled. In this context, most people are aware of the 1492 conquest of the city of Granada, which ends the so-called Reconquest.

Prior to this, in 1487, the city of Malaga, which is really an important city and one of the most important cities in the Emirate of Granada, is defeated by Castilian forces in August of 1487. And because the city falls on Louis of Toulouse's saint's day, which is August 19th, the Castilians justify this as an act kind of blessed by Louis, that he is on their side, and he is happy that the city of Malaga is now under Christian control.

So many of the sources that we have from this moment in time, from either people who are eyewitnesses at the fall of Malaga or people writing afterwards, once really, like, a bishopric is established there, they talk about how this is because of Louis of Toulouse. So this idea that Louis is connected to Malaga really kind of peddles on forward into the early modern period, to the point where the Cathedral of Malaga, by the 18th century, which is many centuries later at this point, decides, "We should have the relics, not Valencia."

So they begin almost like a, a war over Louis' relics between the, uh, cathedral in Valencia that goes on really for decades until the papacy has to intervene, and the papacy decides that the cathedral in Malaga is not allowed to have the full body of Louis of Toulouse, but they can have a portion of his relic.

So by 1720, a very small piece, like a, a very tiny fragment of Louis of Toulouse's relic is sent from Valencia Cathedral to Malaga Cathedral, where it still is. So they get kind of a piece of Louis, but not a lot. Like, if you go and view it on display now, it looks like a very tiny bone fragment.

Loren: And when you say they were sort of, you know, warring with Valencia over, over these relics, w- what does that look like in particular?

Like, are we talking, um, just really heated debate or, or are there actions taken? What does that look like?

Jessica: Yeah, so it's interesting 'cause it's kind of like an active debate that goes on mainly in letters. It's basically the heads of both cathedrals writing back and forth to one another saying, " I should have the relic."

And in Valencia, they're saying, "Well, we've had the relic since the 15th century. It was brought to our city from Marseille. We should really keep it. We don't wanna let go of it." Because the idea is also with saints is you don't wanna... while it definitely happens a lot in practice, you just necessarily don't wanna fragment their body up too, too much, 'cause the idea is when the second coming of Christ happens at the end of time, that the saint will need to kind of, like, regenerate in their body, and if their body is kind of split up in all these different cathedrals, and all these people have a piece, then that's not necessarily supposed to be great.

So this is kind of how this unfolds, and there is an idea at this moment in the early modern period that really Valencia Cathedral at this point is kind of a treasure trove for relics, and this is mainly because of Alfonso V. It holds relics related to Louis of Toulouse, of course, but also Saint George, who is an important relic, or important saint, I should say, both really in the British Isles, but then also in Catalonia, and with the Crown of Aragon, as well as Passion relics.

Like, it's really kind of a place where all Aragonese relics are held. So by this moment, it's kind of said by papal decree that Valencia's cathedral's relics are theirs, and they should not move from that, really that place unless the pope says that it's okay. And it takes until the 1720s to get papal approval for a tiny fragment to move to Malaga.

Loren: So we have this really heated debate between Valencia and Malaga here as well. And then you've also told us that we have some of Louis' bones ending up in the Philippines. So I think that's pushing us even farther into fragmenting this saint. Could you tell us more about how these fragments move even farther, uh, across the world here?

Jessica: Yeah. So you wouldn't necessarily expect Louis of Toulouse, who is a medieval saint that dies in the 13th century, to end up in the Philippines. But this is how really the Spanish Empire gets tied into this story, 'cause Alfonso V is ruling at the end of the 15th century, really on the eve of the union between the Castilian and the Aragonese royal houses with the marriage of Ferdinand I, or Ferdinand II rather, and Isabella I of Castile.

And once these crowns really are unified, this is when some early modern historians tend to think of this as the Kingdom of Spain. And with that, the Spanish start to kind of, as the Atlantic world starts to open up, start to colonize territories in what we would think of now as South America, North America, and eventually later in the 16th century, they get into the Pacific.

With them, the Franciscan Order really is the driver of a lot of this because they're really, them as well as the Dominicans, but the Franciscans are really a major piece of this, begin the missionizing work that goes with colonization, 'cause in their eyes, the, the indigenous peoples living in the Philippines but also elsewhere needed to be converted to Christianity.

So Louis of Toulouse ties into this because there is a church in the Philippines that is still there called the Saint Louis of Toulouse Church that is in Lucban, which is in the Philippines. And the church is originally... So it's, it kind of, much like the Church of Santa Chiara that I mentioned earlier that is in Naples, it too, over time, with weather and then with also warfare and other things, it kind of is subjected to damage here and there.

So this church is rebuilt a few times over the 16th, 17th, and 18th centuries, and it's, it's dedicated to Louis of Toulouse. And at first, it does not have a relic It just is a church because Louis is also a big member of the Franciscan Order, and along with St. Francis of Assisi, Clare of Assisi, and other major Franciscan saints, he is also one of them and considered to be an important saint within that order.

Louis' relics eventually, later in the early modern period in the 17th century, do make it to the Philippines. And like Malaga, the Valencian Church is not willing to give up a large portion of his body, so they also get a very tiny fragment. If you travel to the church now or look for images of it online, you'll see that it's a tiny, tiny little bone fragment that is now protected in the church, and you can go and visit it, and it's protected by glass.

Loren: Would you say it's particularly accessible to the public today? Could I go see the relics of Louis of Toulouse in the Philippines if I were to visit?

Jessica: Yes, you absolutely can. That's the very cool thing about the church that it's in. It's, it's small compared to Valencia Cathedral, and you can go right in and the relic is there by the altar.

Which I should also mention that even in Valencia Cathedral, Louis' relics are very accessible. You walk in, and it's kind of right there, like on the left side. There's a bunch of chapels there that are dedicated to saints, and the first one is Louis of Toulouse, and it's behind a gate. And you can see Louis' skull very prominently, as well as many of the bones that are kind of just shoved into a little box.

So you can, you could see it wherever you go, as well as in Malaga.

Loren: It's interesting to me to think about how we would have the bones of a saint from the south of France, who was brought to southern Italy, who was brought to the Iberian Peninsula, who was brought to the Philippines, and that there are people, um, in each of these places who have this sort of claim over this saint.

And, and I just wonder if you could speak to how complicated that relationship is. Say, for example, maybe a practicing Catholic in the Philippines who feels a relationship to this saint, who is from so- such a distant place and who was brought here for such a, a political reason. I don't know how much you could speak on that, but, but that's clearly embedded in here as well is, is that it's, it's meant to solidify political power in one sense, but there must be people who feel a connection to this, this figure who's from so far away and from so long ago, if that makes any sense.

I know that's a bit of a wandering question.

Jessica: No, that's such a great point because it's, in a lot of ways, Louis of Toulouse, who's someone in his own life was a captive and was someone who was never associated with really the Iberians beyond his own captivity. He wasn't associated really with conquest in any way.

It's fascinating how in death and as a relic, he becomes associated with the conquest of Naples by the Aragonese, because once they conquer the city, they really... Alfonso really leans into the fact that he has this, this relic and really makes the argument that he has a claim to southern Italy because he holds its most important saint, and that he holds the body of really a member of the royal line.

And then it's also, like we s- talked about earlier, was used to really justify what happens in Malaga. It is said that, "Oh, we conquered this city because Saint Louis of Toulouse blessed us." And then again, in the Philippines, somewhere that- Louis had no connection to in life. He really is a Mediterranean saint.

He's really in that geography and really was not anywhere else. It's, it's interesting to think about what, like, someone, a modern person in the Philippines or even beyond would think about really this foreign saint that comes to the Pacific world under the guise of Spanish colonization. Like, in, in a lot of ways, Louis really is almost kind of like a Spanish colonial saint in the early modern and modern period in ways that he wasn't in life, which is interesting to think about, 'cause even in modern Naples, he is, of course, less important than San Gennaro, who is the patron saint of the modern city of Naples, and who is still celebrated in the city.

Louis of Toulouse does not get the same celebration. Like, you can find him in the artwork of certain museums, particularly the Capodimonte Museum in Naples, but he's, he's not at least any longer an important saint there. And it's just, it's interesting how over time and his use in the conquest of cities like Naples and Malaga and in the Philippines is used, 'cause in life he had nothing to do with conquest, but in death he very much does.

Loren: Hmm. Hmm. I- if we were to look for signs of Louis of Toulouse, um, what are some of his recognizable symbols if we were to look for him in, you know, whenever we encounter art that might feature him?

Jessica: Yeah, if you're ever looking, like if you find yourself in a museum that has medieval art, the easiest way to find Louis of Toulouse is usually in iconography.

He's dressed up as a bishop, so they present him as the Bishop of Toulouse with usually a crown that is sitting at his foot. So it's supposed to be the Crown of Naples that he gave up in order to be a Franciscan. So you usually see him in his bishop outfit standing there either looking down at the crown or the crown is just there.

Either it's at his foot or it's sitting on something, but the crown is usually always in the imagery. And then usually his clothing will make him look French. Like he'll have like that famous fleur-de-lis emblem somewhere on his clothing. So it's, it- you'll look at him, even if you don't know who Louis of Toulouse is, if you're looking at medieval art, you'll, you'll think right away that he's associated with some kind of crown and that it has something to do with the French world.

Loren: It strikes me as so, um, I don't know, I, I don't know if i- ironic captures it, um, but it strikes me as ironic that, you know, he is a saint who denied royalty himself and then is used in death as, as a way of legitimating the royalty of others and the, the rule of others. It seems, you know, it, it seems completely, completely backward in that, in that sense.

But, um, but you can see how these stories evolve so, so dramatically over time, and, and so depending on the, the local needs and purposes of people who encounter these stories. That- that's just absolutely fascinating.

Jessica: Yeah, that is such a great way to think about it. Like in life, he rejects royalty and really wants nothing to do with it so that he can become a Franciscan bishop over time, but be a member of that order, and then in death he is used by other kings to say, "Oh, we should have claim to Southern Italy or claim to other territories because Louis of Toulouse is blessing us or he's involved."

It's just interesting how particularly his physical body with his bones becomes so tied up into conquest in ways that I'm sure he wouldn't have agreed with in life.

Loren: And these relics, the, the bones of Louis of Toulouse, they make their way into the New World as well, right?

Jessica: Yeah. So some of your listeners may be familiar, for those who live in California, of the city of San Luis Obispo, which is now a very much a modern city.

There's a university there. It's also an important city in really the early colonial period in what becomes California. And much like is the case with the Philippines, the Franciscan order really is at the helm of doing missionary work in this moment of colonization to convert really the indigenous people who are living in California to Christianity.

And since many of these members are Franciscans, they look to saints like Louis. And s- in California, Louis becomes really the center point of this town, of San Luis Obispo, that has also a mission that is still, I'm pretty sure is still there in California that you can go visit. So because of this really, you have, if we zoom out, we have bones of Louis in the Iberian Peninsula.

They were in Naples, but they are no longer there, so at a time they were in Italy, but now they're not. But now they really follow the Spanish route when they're in California, and they're in the Philippines. So really, Louis becomes really as a symbol of conquest, both in the Philippines and in California as well, really a symbol of Spanish expansion, 'cause as they expand farther eastward, so does Louis of Toulouse.

Loren: It really strikes me that the story of the bones of Louis of Toulouse is just, it's just a perfect example of the ways that our, our current world is still so affected by the medieval period. And it really, I think it helpfully gives us a sense of how we can stretch our understanding of, of time and our relationships to one another by extending so far our understanding of history back in this way.

Um, if, if that makes sense. You know, I, I sometimes feel like the... What, one of the great things about studying the medieval period in general is that it really lengthens our sense of time, helpfully. It helpfully shows us how the, the current world we live in is not just, just, um, a result of, you know, recent events.

It, it really extends farther back to the motivations of people even hundreds of years ago.

Jessica: That is so true, 'cause you wouldn't expect a medieval saint who died in the 13th century to still, one, have his name be a city in California that so many people still live in, and then also in the Philippines.

But also even back in, in Europe, there's still, like, when you walk in museums, there's still churches named after him. Like, it's just interesting how the medieval and the modern meet in really important ways, and saints are really such an important way of, like, really doing that. 'Cause you could still travel to so many churches and still see relics that are centuries old there.

Loren: And certainly the power of how narratives and symbols can carry so much weight, and we can't forget the long, complicated histories that bring them to our present moment. Um, I think that that's coming on a great place to conclude. Yeah. So thank you so much for sharing your work with us today, and I really look forward to hearing more about this work.

And maybe could you let the listeners know where we could learn more about Louis of Toulouse, about your research? Where can we go if we want to find out anything else on this topic or on your work?

Jessica: Yeah. Well, thank you so much for having me. Yeah, so I'm, uh, in the process now of writing an article about the global migration of Louis of Toulouse's relics, so hopefully at some point soon that will be out.

But otherwise, I have a, a website which I can link for you in the show notes that has links to my other, like, more public-facing stuff, but then also some of the articles that I've written in the past. So I will definitely share that with you.

Loren: That'd be wonderful. Thank you so much.

Listen here or on any podcasting platform.